Generational employment experts, owners of the Johnson Training Group, Meagan Johnson and her father Larry Johnson, were kind enough to take the time to answer a few questions about their practical and insightful book Generations, Inc.: From Boomers to Linksters--Managing the Friction Between Generations at Work. The authors describe how the same generational signposts that influence a person's outlook on life, also has a deep impact on a person's ideas about company loyalty, workplace ethics, and what constitutes a job well done.
Thanks to Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson for their time and for their interesting, informative, and very comprehensive responses. They are greatly appreciated.
What was the background to writing this book Generations, Inc.: From Boomers to Linksters--Managing the Friction Between Generations at Work?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: After graduating with a degree in marketing in 1993, Meagan worked as a sales representative for three different major American corporations where she discovered that many older workers perceived her cohort of Gen Xers to be Beavis and Butthead-like slackers who demanded too high salaries, wanted instant promotions, and were not willing to working for either. Knowing this not to be the case for herself, she began interviewing and researching Gen Xers, discovering what her own intuition had told her that Gen Xers were pretty typical of any new generation entering the workplace. That is, they were young and inexperienced, but unusual in that they were equipped with a set of values and ambitions unique to their upbringing during the 1970s. Meagan’s interest in generational issues has stuck with her ever since.
She left corporate America in 1998 to join her father, Larry Johnson (co-author of Absolute Honesty: Building a Corporate Culture That Values Straight Talk And Rewards Integrity) as a partner in his management development firm, the Johnson Training Group where she specializes in teaching organizations how to deal with generational differences in the workplace. In 2009, Meagan and Larry decided to write Generations Inc. – From Boomers To Linksters – Managing the Friction Between Generations together in order to offer insights into this vital topic from an Xer and a Boomer’s different points of view.
Is it common in many organizations today to have employees working together that cross all age groups from senior citizens all the way to teenagers, and every other age group in between?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: It is not as common as it should be. Baby Boomers may not believe it, blame it on the economy or their refusal to believe they will actually get older but there will come a time when Baby Boomers will retire … or die. Either way the Baby Boomers will be leaving the workforce or begin taking on smaller and smaller roles in the day-to-day operations.
Neglecting to create a productive multi-generational team that can learn from one-another before it is too late is a costly mistake. Beginning this year, 2010 there will be an unprecedented age shift in the workforce. For the first time, according to the Social Security Administration the number of workers older than 65 will grow faster than the number of workers in the 20-65 year range. The U.S. workforce is aging and more than a quarter of companies have done nothing to plan for this dramatic aging shift.2
The benefits of having a multi-generational group go beyond learning from each other. During our research we spoke with many members of the Baby Boomer and Traditional Generation that enjoyed working with younger people. They felt the candid enthusiasm of generation Y was refreshing and as one Baby Boomer put it “The younger generation keep work interesting and make everyday something to look forward to.”
In a study by the almighty fast food giant, McDonalds it was found that stores that employed 1 or more workers over 60 years old had higher customer service rating and higher sales when compared to stores that had zero people over 60. The consensus was that the older employees helped foster supportive relationships and created a sense of unity within the group.3
Many companies do not consider the lasting economic impact of generational diversity. At no time do we encourage age discrimination but just like having a culturally rich team brings a variety of viewpoints a generationally diverse group brings a multitude of levels of experience and perspectives.
You describe how different generations view the world and their work differently. How do generational signposts differ from generation to generation?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: With the minds and experiences of three generations from which to draw, it seems that all businesses and organizations should move ahead at warp speed, taking advantage of the wisdom of embattled baby boomers, tapping into the creativity and ambition of Generation Xers, and basking in the youthful exuberance of Generation Y. In reality, this mixture of age groups often causes conflict, disagreement, and dysfunction.
One study found that 60 percent of employers report tension between the generations. Seventy percent of older employees are dismissive of younger employees’ talents, and 50 percent of younger employees don’t value what older employees bring to the table.
When there is generational conflict in the workplace, it affects everything: productivity, energy levels, morale, and problem solving. Well-known business consultant and author of Million Dollar Consulting, Alan Weiss, puts it this way, “In my experience, the best organizations spend about 75 percent or more of their energy and talent on the customer, product, and service, and 25 percent or less on internal affairs, politics, and sniping. Anything worse begins to suck the life right out of the enterprise.”4 In today’s highly competitive and unpredictable business environment, companies can ill afford to waste time and energy on inter-generational conflict that can be avoided.
Likewise, spending enormous amounts of effort resolving disagreements, miscommunication, and petty differences can put stress on friendships and sap a family of its vitality. Much of this conflict can be traced to differences in generational signposts.
Since people from different generations hold differing worldviews, do these different values cause clashes and conflict at work?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: In our work as organizational consultants, we often hear managers complain that young people today have little or no work ethic. There may be some truth to this, but to tar an entire generation with one descriptor misses the tremendous value young people can contribute. Like them or not, young workers are the future of our companies, our communities, and our world. We call this tarring of one generation by another generational myopia.
According to Webster’s Dictionary, Myopia means “a lack of foresight or discernment: a narrow view of something.5 When one generation judges the merits and faults of another through its generational lens, it often takes a narrow view of how that generation thinks.
Let’s suppose you are a baby boomer raised to believe that doing a good job means taking responsibility for seeing that your work is complete before you go home. It’s likely you will take offense if you see a young person walk out the door at 5:00 p.m. when some task critical to a project is still undone. First of all, he’s violating your generational signpost that says “Grown-ups take responsibility.” Second, he’s violating a generational signpost common to baby boomers that we call kumbyaism, (Kumbaya is a song many Boomers remember singing around campfires, hands held and eyes bright with the spirit of brotherly love.) To a Boomer, being a good team player is an absolute must.
Meanwhile, the young person in question, a Generation Yer, may have been raised to believe that if something needs to be done, you or someone else in charge will tell him to do it. Until then, it’s not even on his radar. So while you are projecting your ire at him, and by proxy, all young people, he interprets your bristling as the typical weird behavior of old guys. It’s generational myopia raging on both sides.
We often see very young managers with staff members who are Baby Boomers and even senior citizens. How can a young manager gain respect from their often much more experienced elders?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: As young stars rise in organizations, this phenomenon is becoming more common. Additionally, the research shows that many Baby Boomers plan to delay retirement, or work part time in lieu of full retirement. Consequently, there will be more and more of them who will be managed by up and coming Gen Xers and Gen Yers. We suggest a three-pronged strategy for these young managers.
1. Do a great job. There is no way to fake your way into gaining respect. Veterans will begin to respect you when they see that you know what your doing, that your willing to work hard, and you’re not out to upstage them but, rather to make them look good.
2. Arrange for recognition and credit. The late, great Alabama football coach Bear Bryant was once asked what he thought was the secret to his success. He replied, “If anything goes bad, I did it. If anything goes semi-good, then we did it. If anything goes real good, then you did it. That's all it takes to get people to win football games.”
Like any generation, baby boomers like to be recognized for their achievements. To the degree you can make that happen, you will reap the rewards of their loyalty. You must be careful, however, not to sound fawning. The chances of this happening are directly proportional to the difference in your ages. If you are more than 10 years younger than the baby boomer you are praising, see if you can enlist the help of another boomer from whom the praise will carry more meaning.
For example, during a team meeting, Judy, the Gen Y team leader, commented that Jack, the baby boomer, had really gone the extra mile to resolve a customer problem. She said, “And it’s not the first time. Bill was telling me about what you did on the Anderson account, right Bill?” At that point, Bill made a comment supporting Jack’s abilities. It gave Jack a double dose of praise and it built Judy’s credibility because she: (1) did her homework and (2) proved she’s willing to give credit where credit is due.
3. Find your veteran sergeants. We have a friend who survived three tours in Vietnam as a Marine officer. He went over as a Second Lieutenant and left as a Major. He said the most important lesson he learned was to hook up with each platoon sergeant assigned to him, and ask what he needed from him to be successful. He did this when he arrived in Vietnam and the first veteran said, “Watch our backs and don’t get us killed.” Not knowing quite how to do that yet, our friend said, “OK, if you’ll give me a straight answer when I ask you for help.” They shook hands on the deal.
The next night they went on their first patrol. Our friend took the veteran aside and said, “You know this country better than anyone, especially me. How do you think we ought to approach this patrol?” The veteran gave him the advice he sought and the patrol went without incident. The next morning, he said to the veteran, “In the future, if you think I’m wrong or I’m making a mistake, I want you to take me aside and tell me. I can’t promise I’ll always do what you suggest, but I want to hear what you have to say.” It was the beginning of a three-tour partnership and a lifelong friendship.
All great leaders surround themselves with advisors who may have wisdom in areas they lack. Making an ally of a baby boomer who holds the respect of the team will do the same for you. It will enhance your credibility with the entire team and give you support when things get rough. Best of all, the baby boomer with whom you build this advisor/advisee relationship will tend to feel more vested in your success and in the success of the group.
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson (both shown in photo left)
Reverse mentoring has become very in vogue recently. How can Millenials and Baby Boomers and Traditionals develop a productive reverse mentoring program where all groups can benefit each other and the organization?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: General Electric CEO Jack Welch is widely credited with originating the idea of reverse mentoring in the late-1990s when he ordered hundreds of his managers to pair up with younger workers who could teach them how to use the Internet.6 Many companies have adopted the brilliant strategy because it harvests the best and brightest training from those who know most about the subject, and it exposes the young experts to the wisdom and experience of their older students. It’s a win/win.
For the most part, over the past thirty years, Boomers have made the transition from using paper to computerization, use of e-mail, mastery of closed systems like SAS, and even texting. But in today’s world of social networking and YouTube viral marketing, many just don’t get it. So Unilever began the “Trendslator'' program, designed to help older managers to understand trends in the latest internet-based trends in marketing. Older managers are paired with Gen Yers who get them immersed in Facebook, YouTube, and MySpace.com. The idea is to not only teach them how to use these services but to inculcate them with a way of thinking about communication and marketing that is already part of most Gen Yers’ DNA.6
In the past few years, Nokia has expanded from a company that manufactures and sells telephone handsets into a company that offers user solutions like Nokia Life Tools, a range of services including agriculture, education and entertainment services designed specially for the consumers in small towns and rural areas of the emerging markets. To make this happen, Nokia has hired a host of subject matter experts as well as marketing and sales experts. Many of these folks are young and have the knowledge and orientation to create the new services far beyond the senior managers who hired them. So Nokia has set up formal mentoring relationships where these younger gurus help the older managers understand what the older managers wanted to do in the first place – offer services and solutions beyond “just a handset.”7
Office politics a given in any organization. How can experienced Baby Boomers help Gen X and Millennial employees avoid the pitfalls of office politics?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: Unlike operational procedures, which are usually logical and scientific in nature, office politics are more an art form, following the whims and idiosyncracies of human nature. You may be able to teach political principles in a class room, but to master the art requires more of an apprenticeship approach under the watchful eye of a master.
Many Japanese companies have formalized this process called sempai/kohai. A promising young manager, the kohai, (which means student,) is assigned to an older, more experienced manager, the sempai (which means mentor.) The sempai is usually outside the kohai’s chain of command and functions much like a “godfather” to him or her. In addition to his normal managerial duties, the sempai helps the kohai succeed in all areas of work from technical know-how to operational issues to organizational politics.
There’s a wonderful scene in the movie Tampopo in which a group of Japanese businessmen go to lunch at a fancy French restaurant. As is the custom in Japanese culture, everyone waits for the CEO to order, and then they all order the same thing. When the waiter gets to the youngest member of the group, however, he grills the waiter about all the options on the menu, asking which wines go with which entrées, and finally orders a meal three times more expensive than that of the CEO. As he does this, his sempai is kicking him under the table, trying to keep him from killing his career.
You may wonder why you wouldn’t just have the young person’s manager be the sempai. Isn’t it the manager’s job to mentor her people? To a degree, that’s true, but the manager must often make decisions that adversely affect the kohai. She may have to pass him over for a promotion or place him on an assignment that is necessary but won’t contribute to his growth. Her first responsibility is not to the kohai but to the work unit.
On the other hand, because the sempai has no responsibility for the success of the kohai’s work unit, but is only accountable for the success of the kohai, he or she can focus on helping the kohai do well. It’s a matter of incentive. The manager is rewarded when the group is successful. The sempai is rewarded when the kohai is successful. If the manager has to fire the kohai, it becomes a black mark on the sempai’s career.
Consequently, the subordinate is rewarded because he can be more open with someone who is not part of the chain of command. The sempai can get at the real reasons an employee is flailing, not just the politically correct, pat answers one might give to the boss. Together, they can address the real issues. Wouldn’t you have loved to have had a mentor with that level of interest in your success early in your career?
Because different generations are often very different in their ideas of what is appropriate clothing for work, how can dress codes be developed that work for everyone?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: I absolutely love the dress code dilemma! When I was kid I pushed the dress code limits at school and in my 20s beginning my career the worst thing I could do in my own mind was work for a company that did not let me wear whatever I chose. Ironically my first job out of college was for an extremely conservative, fuddy-duddy food manufacturer that did not look kindly on dressing “creatively.” Consequently I was reprimanded and written up in regards to my, attire, jewelry and hair. As a young 20 something I took these admonishments with pride.
Today’s mangers are dealing with more than big hair and Madonna style bracelets. Supervisors have to deal with tattoos, piercings, even more colorful hair colors, underwear as outerwear and all types of cleavage on both men and women.
First off, decide if dress code should even be an issue. There are some environments it just does not matter. Obviously in retail situations, the sales staff should be able to dress like their customers or wear the type of clothing they are selling. In a more corporate environment you may discover that dress code is not as important as you think it is. Ask yourself why is dress code an issue? If none of your answers have to do with safety/quality, customer service or cost I suggest that dress code is a non-issue or make the dress code casual.
There is nothing wrong with having different types of dress code for the different roles people occupy in the office. A manufacturing firm we interviewed has an extremely casual (shorts, jeans, t-shirts and flip-flops) dress code for all office personnel and the sales reps as long as the rep is not calling on a customer. If a rep is calling on a customer, however, they are expected to dress in a manner that reflects the customer’s corporate culture. The warehouse staff has a much stricter dress code because there are safety issues. They must wear closed toed shoes and protective eyewear while working in the warehouse.
Providing a uniform is another option. It creates a level playing field for everyone and guarantees what you will see on your employees everyday. Word of caution: make the uniform attractive. If you would not want to be seen walking down the street in the uniform, chances are your employees will not wear it with a sense of pride while working for you.
There are some organizations, that because of the nature of the business, need to have a strict dress code. That dress code can include limiting the number of piercings, insisting that tattoos be covered, no jeans, t-shirts and no cleavage on men or women. Whatever the expectation, it’s important it be clarified beyond explaining the policy in the HR handbook.
Show pictures of the expected dress code, show pictures of what is not acceptable and tell your new employees where they can purchase some of the proper work attire. Remember some new employees are just starting out so they may not have a lot of money to spend. If you can arrange with local retailers to get your employees a discount on their first purchase, it goes a long way with their buy-in regarding the dress code.
One of the best ideas in action I saw was at the annual meeting of the Idaho Prosecuting Attorneys Association. The association’s board had several retailers come in and give a fashion show. The entire show lasted 30 minutes and demonstrated appropriate business attire and some Office Fashion Don’ts. The members were given discounts and gift cards to use with the retailers that participated.
Most importantly, don’t assume all employees have the same definition of casual Friday or proper attire. What may be Dockers and a golf shirt to you may mean barbed wire and duct tape to someone else.
Younger twenty something employees are often perceived as having a sense of entitlement. Why is that and how can this issue be addressed effectively for everyone?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: Younger employees have been accustomed all of their lives to having their opinions heard.
We put this one squarely on the shoulders of the parents. Generation Y was raised by Baby Boomers who, with the invention of the birth control pill and the rise of the women’s movement, were able to postpone having children until they had sown their wild oats, got their educations, and established themselves financially and socially. In our book, we describe Shap and Dyan, Boomer friends of ours who fit this model to a tee.
They were ex-hippies in their mid-thirties who had gone on to professional lives—he a social science researcher for the university and she a city personnel officer. They had become firmly ensconced in the Yuppie lifestyle—owning their own home, driving nice cars, and eating at good restaurants—but they still described themselves as “free spirits” and never missed a Grateful Dead concert. After 13 years of marriage, they decided it was time to have a child. When they announced Dyan’s pregnancy, they told us that they were determined to do this kid thing right.
And they did. Dyan breast-fed Kelsey from the start and gave her only organic baby food. They read to her, held her, coddled her, and rocked her constantly. They bought her only educational toys. They converted their living room into a replica of Romper Room. They took her to Gymboree regularly and enrolled her in an experimental preschool run by Shap’s university. Later, they got her into a magnet school for the arts. They arranged play dates with her schoolmates. They equipped their house and car with all the latest child safety features, including a car seat that would protect her if they happened to drive over Niagara Falls. And, of course, they had a BABY ON BOARD sticker in their car’s back window. In retrospect, Dyan and Shap were typical of baby boomer parents of the time.
Of course, there’s nothing wrong with this kind of dedication to good parenting, but for many Boomers, it nurtured a sense in their Gen Y children that they were entitled to everything they got and a lot more.
Managing these folks doesn’t mean you must mimic the indulgence showered on them by their parents, but it probably doesn’t hurt to show them the kind of respect for their opinions to which they’ve become accustomed. In fact, it probably doesn’t hurt to show everyone that kind of respect. Which was Robert Townsend’s point in the first place.
How can other generations gain from the input of ideas from younger workers?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: When it comes to the younger generation being your technology guide you have to swallow your pride and ask for their help. Many Gen Yers are so accustomed to technology it does not occur to them you do not know what they know.
Ask them to help with the company’s web site, or enlist their help making YouTube videos that promote the company or company’s products. I was on a panel discussion at a credit-union conference when a Gen Y panel member told the group to recruit their Gen Y employees to make How To videos to put on the credit union website. She told the group, “You do not know how many Young Gen Yers do not know how to keep their finances straight or balance a checkbook. If you make a How To Video and put it on your company website it will attract more Gen Y customers.”
The younger generation has been lauded for their technological prowess but they do have more than high-tech know how to share. Make it a point to spend time with younger employees. I suggest you do this even if they are not your employees; you will be surprised at what you may learn.
The CEO of Netflix makes it a point to have lunch with all new employees once a month. At these luncheons he answers employee questions but also listens to their suggestions. It was at one of these luncheons when a new young employee challenged the vacation policy. The employee argued that as long as he got his job done, and did it exceptionally well, the amount of vacation time he took should not matter. To the credit of the CEO of Netflix there are certain positions that have unlimited vacation time.
The key to learning from the younger generation is not turning off the spout. Sometimes it may seem their ideas are not thought out or well planned and we want to turn off the faucet. Generation Y has input in their family structure from an early age, they influence 81% of the families apparel purchases and 52% of car choices. It is only natural they want to share their thoughts with you. Listen to what they have to say and if their ideas truly are improbable take the time to explain why. Much like technology, what seems obvious to them is foreign to you it is vice-versa in the work world. What is plain as the nose on your face to you is totally alien to them.
Gen X employees very often prefer to work independently, while Millennials prefer teams. How can a Baby Boomer manager help both groups achieve success without conflict?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: Although Gen Xers tend to seek individual recognition, it doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t work well in teams. They tend to look for support among small groups within their teams or coworkers. Their relationships tend to be based more on professional, mutual respect than on the fact that they’re all on the same team.
For example, we spoke with Sam, who is a Gen X chemist for a genetics research company. Since he graduated in 1993, Sam has worked in seven different labs for seven different companies. He has been with his current employer for about three years. Sam says what he likes most about his job are the other technicians with whom he works.
“There were other labs that had better technology, and some had a better salary schedule, but there was always something missing” said Sam. “I never really felt connected with the other researchers. Part of the problem was age. I was younger and didn’t feel like I had anything in common with older scientists. Looking back, I probably should have tried harder to understand where they were coming from.”
“The group I am with now is terrific,” Sam said. “We have a good time, get important work done, and are always learning from each other. The fact that I feel like I am working with a group of allies is especially refreshing when deadlines are approaching and stress levels are high.”
Rather than a melting pot of people, to a Gen Xer, a successful team is a group of individual, driven people, each with a talent that contributes to achieving the goal. The team decides on the plan and the members complete the tasks. Team members have the freedom and the space to go about getting the job done as they see fit, as long as the desired results are achieved.
They communicate with each other as needed by email, Twitter, videoconferencing, or discussion over the cubicle wall. At the end, they come together and put the pieces of their project together like a jigsaw puzzle. It is this web-like structure that creates a satisfactory team experience for the Gen Xer. No group hugs or singing Kumbaya, just individuals working with each other to accomplish a goal.
How can the right type of management be created and implemented to work effectively for all generations?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: Since each generation requires a different approach - flexibility is the key. In our book, we devote an entire chapter to what we call “Mode Management.” It’s a formal model where a manager can pick her approach with an employee based on five factors:
1. The tasks and procedures at hand
2. The need for speed
3. The need for coordination with others
4. The generation from which the employee comes
5. The proven competence of the employee in question
Managers who have mastered this kind of formalized flexibility should find managing multiple generations to be easier than those who take a one-size-fits-all approach.
What is the future for mutli-generational workplaces, and will we see more of them?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: History is in the making. Never before have five generations occupied the workplace as they do now. The three main groups are:
• Baby Boomers, aka the Woodstock Generation, born between 1946 and 1964
• Generation X, aka Latchkey Kids, born between 1965 and 1980
• Generation Y, aka the Entitled Ones, born between 1981 and 1995
A few members of the Traditional generation are also still working (aka
Depression Babies, born before 1945), and we’re beginning to see the first of the Linkster Generation appearing on the job site (aka the Facebook Crowd, born after 1995). In reality then, five generations are now present in the workforce. This is rapidly changing as more and more Traditionals exit and more of the Linked-In Generation enter, creating a four-part milieu that will be with us until all the Baby Boomers retire. And, according to a host of studies, many Baby Boomers plan to continue working long past the age of 65, so this four-part milieu is likely to be the state of business for many years to come.
What is the first step an employer should take toward creating a conflict free workplace that included members of many generations and sub-generations?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: I’ll answer that one. After college, and before I returned to graduate school, I worked as an apprentice carpenter, assigned to a tough old journeyman who was my father’s age. One day he sent me to cut some pieces that were part of the form for a large concrete beam. I cut them too short, so the material and my time was wasted. I was sure I’d be fired. When I told him we had a problem, he replied, “Son, we don’t have a problem unless we can’t fix it.” We did, and I kept the job, but I’ve never forgotten that lesson in life. So we recommend the first step in creating a conflict free workplace that includes members of many generations is to partner them in to teaching pairs where they can learn from one another, whether it be a traditional apprentice/journeyman set up like I had with the old carpenter, or a reverse mentoring arrangement like Jack Welsh envisioned at GE.
What is next for Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson?
Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson: “I’m writing a book about the journey my wife CJ has traveled through the healthcare system since an accident in 2003 left her with a severe brain injury.
Larry Johnson
“I’m going to Disneyland!” Meagan Johnson.
Meanwhile, we are giving thought to our next boo spending time on the road, speaking to audiences on how they can create organizational cultures where different generations can flourish.
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James J. L'Allier, Ph. D. & Kenneth Kolosh, “Preparing for Baby Boomer Retirement,” June 2005,
2 Tamara Schweitzer, “Report: Retiring Baby Boomers Expected to Hurt U.S. Companies,” Inc., Mar 23, 2007,
3 Stefan Stern, “The kids are alright but they need help,” Financial Times, February 22 2010,
4 Alan Weiss, author, Million Dollar Consulting. Quoted in an e-mail interview March 26, 2009. Permission to print this interview given.
5 Merriam Webster’s Online Dictionary,
6 Proudfoot, Shannon, “Mentoring takes on a new twist,” Winnipeg Free Press, July 2, 2008,
6 Rupal Parekh, “Unilever youth teach vets the ABCs of digital; TALENTWORKS: Reverse mentoring aims to keep older execs up to date.(News)(Unilever North America)(education on digital marketing for advertising executives),” Advertising Age, October 8, 2008,
7 Saumya Bhattacharya, “Young mentors at Nokia,” Business Today, February 3, 2010,
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My book review of Generations, Inc.: From Boomers to Linksters--Managing the Friction Between Generations at Work by Meagan Johnson and Larry Johnson
Meaghan Johnson & Larry Johnson: Generations, Inc. - Author interview
Catherine Jewell: New Resume New Career - Author interview
Career coach, and founder and owner of The Career Passion™ Coach, Catherine Jewell, was kind enough to take the time to answer a few questions about her very practical and action oriented book New Resume New Career: Get the Job You Want with the Skills and Experience You Already Have. The author describes how to create a resume that will land an interview and a job in the same industry, or even in a different industry entirely.
Thanks to Catherine Jewell for her time and for her very informative and comprehensive responses. They are greatly appreciated.
What was the background to writing this book New Resume New Career?
Catherine Jewell: The downturn in the economy has left many job seekers high and dry. Manufacturing jobs have been off-shored for good. Many positions have simply been eliminated—and may never come back in their former state. Very few job seekers have the time or the funds to retrain for new careers. Many job applicants are also feeling they want a new challenge, and a fresh start with a different career. This book is designed to help people find jobs they love with the skills and experience they already have. The economy provided the perfect storm; my work with clients provided the 50 case studies in the book to bring hope to today’s career changers.
With the economic downturn, and a tough job market, how important is career flexibility to moving to a new industry?
Catherine Jewell: The days of the 40-year career with one company are long gone. Instead of a gold watch, today’s workers can expect a pink slip—even if they are model employees. We all have to be flexible and realize we are free agents. We don’t work for companies anymore—we need to work for ourselves, trimming our sails and going where the winds of business are blowing. The easiest career switch is to a new industry—it simply means putting your functional skills to work in a new environment.
The good news is that most businesses have similar functions—marketing, product or service delivery, customer service, human resources, sales, accounting, etc. My book, New Resume New Career, discusses the challenges of switching industries, switching functions, or switching both. (Yikes.) My experience with more than 600 career changers is that people generally fall into those categories—one-third, one-third, one-third. The more seasoned the worker, the more likely they are to make a more dramatic switch.
Many people are afraid that if they change careers that that their overall career path will be derailed. Is this the case any longer?
Catherine Jewell: Hardly. If you stay in the same functional area (sales, marketing, customer service, HR, accounting) you can show a consistent career path in your area of expertise. Some employers are welcoming workers from other industries because they have “new” ideas to share. For example, one of my clients switched from international consulting in the High Tech industry to marketing in the Healthcare Industry. The hospital executives who interviewed her were fascinated with her “fresh” approach to marketing to physicians. She was simply bringing the lessons learned in consulting to a new environment.
That said, there can be a short “adjustment” time when career changers have to accept slightly lower pay until they can prove themselves in the new environment. I advise my clients to go for a lateral (same pay scale) move when changing careers. If they have to take 10-20% less in a career change, that is generally an acceptable trade-off because the new career is exciting, energizing, and usually more satisfying. That kind of a financial hit can easily be made up in a year or two of great performance.
Is it really possible to transition successfully from one industry to another completely unrelated industry?
Catherine Jewell: It’s been done — that’s why I featured 50 real-life career changers in my book. I wanted people to see that the leap makes sense when you understand the person and their experiences, skills, and desires. Look for shifts that are logical for you. Computer Chip manufacturing and Solar Panels use some of the same technology, so that’s a natural change. A change to Healthcare might require Medical Terminology courses, but those are often available at community colleges and for a fairly low investment of dollars and time. Of course, it’s best to keep the change as small as possible – it’s easier to go from a hospital to a nursing home than it is to go from a retail store to a nursing home. But, hey, if people want that kind of change, it’s possible and even invigorating.
One client went from software to calendar publishing, and from sales to training. He found his new function was a life-long dream—to train and mentor. His new role made him so happy that learning the calendar business was a breeze. He accepted a decrease in pay initially, but he was glad to take it to keep the family going. Just one year later, he was promoted to a management position and had nearly recaptured his “old” salary. He went from demoralized salesperson to energized manager in just 24 months. Not a bad story for 2008-2010.
Is it also possible to make a career change within the same industry from one job function to another?
Catherine Jewell: The functional switch is generally harder to do. Many people do this when they finish an MBA program or other educational goals. I have seen people move from customer service into finance when they finished their accounting bachelor’s degree. Another example is moving from a technical role such as engineering to project management. Most of the job creation in the last few years has been in the 2-year degree job arena, and in jobs that require certificates (such as Human Resource Professional and Project Management Professional). Job seekers who want to switch functions should seriously look into retraining dollars—grants and loans—that might be available from the Federal government or state workforce agencies.
Catherine Jewell (photo left)
How critical is creating the right resume to ensure a smooth and successful transition to another industry or job function?
Catherine Jewell: Like it or not, the resume is your calling card — it is the document that gets you the interview. The resume has to sell your skills and experience as they relate to the job you are seeking. You must have a resume that speaks to the job requirements. That’s why it so important to completely rewrite your resume if you expect to change careers. Many job seekers have two or three versions, depending on the job they are seeking.
In the book, you suggest separating the job from work. What do you mean by that?
Catherine Jewell: People who have lost jobs through no fault of their own often feel bitter and demoralized. They tell themselves, “I’ll NEVER do that job again.” It’s important to think about the work you did, and what activities you really enjoyed. That’s what you take with you to your next career. Mostly, people are demoralized by the job conditions, not the work itself. So, instead of throwing all of it out—take a look at the work and what you enjoyed about it.
For example, a mortgage originator found that she hated the corporate bureaucracy, her unavailable boss, the picky and difficult mortgage processor, the low commissions, the long work hours, and the bank politics. Those were all job conditions. She loved meeting with prospects, solving difficult problems, researching details, creating special deals, and helping people buy homes. She didn’t need new work, she needed a new job!
How can a person assess their transferable skills and place them in resume form effectively?
Catherine Jewell: A great place to start is your former job description. That document is filled with –ing verbs – Writing, Managing, Budgeting, Supervising, Creating, Presenting, Selling, Negotiating, Developing, etc. Those are the job skills that you have picked up and honed as a part of your career. Those 10-15 skills will serve you well in another job. I often put a table at the top of a resume that says “Core Competencies.” This is a quick and easy way to communicate your strengths. My book, New Resume New Career includes an appendix of the 400+ transferable skills mentioned in the book’s 50 resume makeovers.
How can a resume sell the job applicant to get that all important interview?
Catherine Jewell: The ONLY thing that will sell the applicant is proof that you are a match for the job. The resume has to show that you have what it takes. The closer the match, the more highly you will be regarded as a potential employee.
Is there any one right type of resume or should the job seeker be flexible as to resume format?
Catherine Jewell: There are so many great formats out there. Pick and choose elements that tell your story in the best way. I do recommend what I call the Resume Billboard™ on all resumes. This is a special section at the top of the first page that summarizes your key skills and achievements. It’s the most important 100 words of your resume—a mini billboard selling you.
Many people will offer advice to the employment seeker that may be intended to help but may not be useful. How should a person react to this advice?
Catherine Jewell: My mother always told us, “Consider the source.” If your aunt Ellen is an English professor and notices a wrong word choice, pay attention. If she knows nothing about business and starts to tell you how to describe your achievements, think again. Seek out opinions from hiring managers, or at least professionals in the same line of business. Listen, thank people for their help, use what’s helpful, and discard the rest. Constant tinkering with your resume will make you nuts.
What one piece of advice should every job seeker remember?
Catherine Jewell: Networking will generate job leads. A great resume will get you the interview. A great interview will generate an offer. It’s not rocket science, but you have to be consistently professional in your job search.
What is next for Catherine Jewell?
Catherine Jewell: I’m likely to be the keynote speaker at your next professional association meeting or convention. Everyone — employed or seeking — needs to become a master at managing their own career. We are all free agents. Our career growth and development is up to us. Finding and expressing your Career Passion® is everyone’s job 1. Just when we least expect it, any one of us could need a New Resume and a New Career.
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My book review of New Resume New Career: Get the Job You Want with the Skills and Experience You Already Have by Catherine Jewell.
Catherine Jewell is on a personal quest to help everyone find perfect work. She is the Career Passion® Coach and author of New Resume New Career, a resume makeover book featuring 50 real-life career changers. For more than 25 years, she has studied the phenomena of career planning and has coached more than 600 adults through mid-life career changes. Catherine speaks at conferences about Career Passion® and provides resume writing, career testing, group tele-classes, and coaching for job seekers around the nation. Her new book is available on Amazon.com and in book stores now. For more information, check out www.CareerPassionCoach.com or contact her at cj@careerpassioncoach.com.
Cathy M. Rubin: The Real Alice In Wonderland - Author interview
Author Cathy M. Rubin was kind enough to take the time to answer a few questions about her (co-authored with Gabriella Rose Rubin) gorgeous, lavishly illustrated tribute to Alice Liddell, The Real Alice in Wonderland: A Role Model for the Ages.
Creating much more than a coffee table book, the authors explore the real life and Victorian world in which their relative Alice Liddell lived her extraordinary life.
Thanks to Cathy M. Rubin for her time and for her comprehensive responses about both the book and the fascinating life of Alice Liddell.
What do American Independence Day and Alice In Wonderland have in common?
Cathy M. Rubin: American Independence Day and Alice in Wonderland share the same birthday i.e. July 4. Friday July 4, 1862 is credited with the first time Lewis Carroll told Alice Liddell and her sisters the story of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. It was shortly after the first telling of Carroll’s story that Alice began to urge the author to write it down for her.
What was the background to writing this book The Real Alice in Wonderland: A Role Model for the Ages?
Cathy M. Rubin: In 2007, my daughter’s school selected Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland for Book Day. My daughter Gabriella remembered we had a connection to the Liddell family. Alice Liddell inspired Charles Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll) to write the original story. At this point I knew very little about Alice Liddell’s story other than what my grandmother and my great aunt Phil Liddell had told me about her when I was a child. Gabriella bugged me to help her research the story. You could say we jumped down the rabbit hole together.
It took us several months to research the content for our Book Day workshop which we called The Real Alice In Wonderland. After we presented the workshop to Gabriella’s school and other groups we were encouraged by educators, friends and family to turn our story into a film or book. The book as you can see came first!
Many people are unaware that Lewis Carroll wrote about a real Alice. What can you tell us about Alice Liddell as a real person?
Cathy M. Rubin: Alice Liddell was born into a privileged, academic family on May 4, 1852. She was the fourth child of Henry and Lorina Liddell. Her father, one of the most prominent educators of his day, was the Dean of Christ Church College, Oxford University. Alice was home schooled by some of Oxford University’s finest tutors. She was a bright child with significant artistic talents. Alice was also known to be free-spirited (largely due to her never-ending curiousity about everything).
She grew up to become a beautiful and cultured young woman. Her beauty inspired many distinguished photographers and artists such as Charles Dodgson, Julia Margaret Cameron and Sir William Blake Richmond. She also inspired the devotion of many suitors including Prince Leopold, Queen Victoria’s youngest son. In 1880, she married a wealthy landowner, Reginald Hargreaves, with whom she had three sons.
It seems like Alice was even more intriguing in life, than she was in the famous novels, if that is possible. What is the legacy of the real Alice beyond what Lewis Carroll wrote?
Cathy M. Rubin: We know from the fan mail our book has been receiving that people believe Alice Liddell’s real life was even more fascinating than the fictional character she inspired. It is a rich story of a very creative, curious and magnetic young girl who grew up to become a cultural icon and one of the most celebrated women of the last 100 years. It is a story of love, tragedy, duty, courage and loyalty to family and country. Her story has particularly touched people because throughout it all, Alice (a woman living in very conservative age of Victorian England) showed tremendous courage and determination to overcome the many obstacles she faced – not unlike the fictional Alice in Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland – in real life.
In many ways, Alice Liddell was ahead of her time as she broke down barriers for women. What were a few of her groundbreaking achievements?
Cathy M. Rubin: Alice was President of the Emery Down Women’s Institute. The WI worked tirelessly to break down the social barriers between the rich and the poor in local communities. Once women over 30 were allowed to vote, the WI leadership focused on urging women to acquire new skills and to actively engage in issues that mattered to them and to their communities.
Later in her life, as Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland the book became an international best seller, people discovered there was a real Alice. It didn’t take long for the real Alice to become a celebrity too. Alice used this platform to give back to her community. She became a spokesperson in England and the United States for a number of children’s charities at a time when women were rarely seen up front in the spotlight. We cover Alice’s many achievements as a role model in our book.
Cathy Rubin and Gabriella Rubin (both in photo left)
What areas of the Alice books did Lewis Carroll draw from that were real places and events in Alice's life and upper class world?
Cathy M. Rubin: Lewis Carroll was inspired by many of the real places, events and people in Alice’s life when he wrote Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland. Here are some examples: Alice’s sisters, Lorina and Edith, are believed to have inspired the Lory and the Eaglet in the Pool of Tears. Lewis Carroll often took the real Alice to see the Dodo bird at the Natural History Museum in Oxford. The Dodo bird appears in Alice in Wonderland. Lewis Carroll’s own adopted character was the Dodo. Alice’s father, Dean Henry Liddell, is believed to have inspired the White Rabbit. He was often running late for his appointments and so had to make quick escapes out of a secret door in the Dining Hall at Christ Church College. Alice’s governess, Ms. Prickett, is believed to have inspired the Queen of Hearts.
There are two small gardens behind Alice’s home in Oxford. It was here that Lewis Carroll taught Alice and her sisters to play Castle Croquet, a game that appears in Alice in Wonderland. There is also a tree that still stands today in the garden which is believed to have inspired the real Cheshire Cat tree. The old sheep shop (Alice through the Looking Glass) in Oxford was based on a store located in Oxford where Carroll took Alice and her sisters to buy sweets. The woman who ran the store sounded like a sheep. The store still exists today and it is called Alice’s Shop.T
The breakup between Alice's family and Lewis Carroll is well known as an event, but the details are often lacking. What caused these two remarkable people to drift apart?
Cathy M. Rubin: A break-up occurred between Dodgson and Alice’s mother Lorina around the time Dodgson presented Alice with her special gift, i.e. his handcrafted work Alice’s Adventures Underground. Lorina stopped all outings between Dodgson and Alice. Alice was at an age when Victorian parents started looking for suitable husbands for their daughters. While there are many theories as to why the break up occurred, we believe that Carroll’s beautiful gift triggered concerns for Lorina. Dodgson was a poor, undistinguished professor whom Lorina would never have considered eligible. Although Alice’s mother caused the break up when Alice was a young teen, Carroll’s book connected him to Alice for the rest of their respective lives.
Alice married and had children, but her story was tinged with sadness. What happened with her sons and her family?
Cathy M. Rubin: All three of Alice’s sons served their country in World War 1. Alice and her husband Reginald Hargreaves tragically lost two of their three sons in this brutal war. Reginald never recovered from the deaths of his children. Alice, while grieving herself, supported him through a long slow decline in his health to his eventual death. This was a tough time in Alice’s life, a time during which she illustrates incredible courage.
Alice Liddell - The real Alice in Wonderland (photo left)
The many drawings and illustrations in the book are wonderful as well. How were these photographs selected? What aspects of Alice's life were they portraying?
Cathy M. Rubin: We spent years collecting the visual materials for our book. Ultimately we couldn’t use all the materials we had and cuts had to be made during the editorial process. Despite the treasures left out, we are happy to say that there are approximately 500 photographs, artifacts and illustrations in our book. We believe that collectively they portray Alice Liddell’s entire life in a very compelling way.
Many images come from Alice’s personal effects (auctioned in 2001) which at one time were considered to be the largest Alice In Wonderland collection in the world. Others come from museums and libraries all around the world. Some of the artworks were created by world famous artists during Alice’s lifetime while others were created during the last few years. Our vision for our book was a collector’s item.
We wanted readers to feel a part of the 19th/early 20th century wonderland in which Alice Liddell lived. Deborah Frano, our designer, and I worked 18 hours a day for several months to present each spread as if it were a multi media frame in a movie, i.e. rich storytelling combined with stunning graphics along with lots of little surprises you might miss on the first viewing. Nancy Rosin’s Victoriana collection really helped us to make things look more authentic and ultimately realize our grand vision for the project.
What was your favorite part of researching and collecting the photographs and art work surrounding Alice Liddell and her life?
Cathy M. Rubin: Without a doubt the favorite part of this project was meeting all the incredible people -- fans of Alice from around the world that we worked with on our book. We got the sense that they were trusting us to do a great job with the materials they let us use. They wanted Alice’s story told and they were so generous with their time and their perspectives because they were so excited to be a part of The Real Alice In Wonderland.
What is the one lesson from Alice's life that inspired you most?
Cathy M. Rubin: I believe the many lessons we learn from Alice’s life story make her an excellent role model for young women of today. The major lesson from Alice’s life that inspired us most……..Life’s adventures will throw you plenty of curve balls. There is always a way to get out of the rabbit hole but first you must have the courage and conviction to believe you will prevail. Once you believe in yourself you’ll find a way to create wonderland on your own terms.
What is next for Cathy M. Rubin?
Cathy M. Rubin: I have another famous relative, George Ernest Morrison (aka Morrison of Peking and Chinese Morrison). I am researching material on his life currently with a view to producing a documentary.
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My book review of The Real Alice in Wonderland: A Role Model for the Ages by Cathy M. Rubin and Gabriella Rubin.
Cathy M. Rubin and Gabriella Rose Rubin are the co-authors of The Real Alice in Wonderland: A Role Model for the Ages.
C.M. Rubin was born in South America, and as a child, lived in many cities throughout the United States, Europe, Africa and the Middle East. She has more than two decades experience in development, marketing, and art direction for a diverse range of media businesses. She is the author of two best-selling, award winning books for children, Eleanor, Ellatony, Ellencake and Me, and its sequel, Ellie The Perfect Dress For Me. She is currently working on a third book in the Ellie series.
Gabriella Rubin is a student at the Horace Mann School in New York. Aside from reading and writing, her passion is music composition. The Real Alice in Wonderland is the first of what she hopes will be many collaborations with her Mom.
Nancy Trejos: Hot (broke) Messes - Author interview
Washington Post personal finance and travel columnist Nancy Trejos, was kind enough to take the time to answer a few questions about her honest and self revealing book about personal finances Hot (broke) Messes: How to Have Your Latte and Drink It Too.
The author describes candidly her descent into debt, and how she created and executed a plan to become debt free, without living a life lacking completely in pleasures and treats. She also shares some handy tips for living and shopping on budget, as well as saving for major purchases and for retirement.
Thanks to Nancy Trejos for her interesting and informative responses. They are greatly appreciated.
What was the background to writing this book Hot (broke) Messes: How to Have Your Latte and Drink It Too?
Nancy Trejos: I became a financial mess early on--in college. But I was able to get by, mostly by making minimum payments on my credit cards. I got into the habit of just sweeping aside my problems, and not actually fixing them. I started working at the Post 11 years ago. I covered all sorts of beats: county government, education, even the war in Iraq briefly. And then I became a financial writer.
I remember an editor asking me to be the personal finance writer and I said "Are you kidding me? I'm a personal finance disaster." But he thought I would come up with some good story ideas, which I did. But the longer I covered personal finance, the more it became impossible to keep living in denial about my own finances.
I was constantly interviewing people on the verge of bankruptcy or unable to pay their mortgages, and I realized I was not all that much different. They would always seem embarrassed talking to me and I would tell them "Hey, I know exactly how you feel." I wanted to write this book because I know there are so many people out there who are in financial trouble. They're not bad people, they're not dumb people, they've just made mistakes. I wanted to show those people that they're not alone.
The book is about your experiences with getting into and out debt. How did you find yourself in such serious financial difficulty?
Nancy Trejos: It started early on. I grew up in Queens, N.Y. My parents were immigrants. My dad is from Colombia. My mother is from Ecuador. My dad worked in a hospital cafeteria. My mom cleaned offices. They were frugal. We never splurged on anything. But we had everything we needed. I left my parents' home when I was 17 and never went back. I went to Georgetown University, where many students came from wealthy families. I started trying to keep up with the Jane and Joe Hoyas, as we called them.
I wanted to dress better and go on Spring Break, and I was able to do so because I got a credit card. Card companies were willing to give cards to any college student. I figured I could charge my lifestyle and get a better-paying job and deal with it later. It became a vicious cycle. I didn't have a strong financial foundation when I struck out on my own. Financial literacy isn't really something that is taught in schools, or even in many households.
Mancy Trejos (photo left)
Why do so many people have problems with money management and debt?
Nancy Trejos: As I said, I think people don't get taught enough about finances. We get taught more about sex than we do about how to balance our checkbooks. But also, I think part of the problem is psychological. Personal finance is called personal for a reason. Many people are emotional spenders. You have a bad day at work and you spend too much on cocktails after work. You break up with someone and you go buy a new wardrobe to make yourself feel better. We have to learn how to make more rational decisions about money.
One of the major problems facing people today is credit card debt. How does it get out of control?
Nancy Trejos: For a long time, when real estate values were soaring, people could mortgage their way out of debt--that is, they could get home equity lines of credit and pay off their credit cards. We went through a period of so much prosperity--the stock market was at a high, real estate values were soaring--and people got caught up in wanting the bigger house and the bigger car. They were able to finance these unrealistic lifestyles because banks were willing to extend credit to just about anyone. Those days are over.
How can credit card debt be repaid without causing other financial problems?
Nancy Trejos: For one thing, don't withdraw money from your 401k or other retirement savings accounts to pay off your credit cards. So many people do that and it hurts them later on in life. There are other ways to get out of credit card debt. Get on a budget. Cut back on things you don't need. Look at all your expenses and eliminate the cable if you don't watch it, or that magazine subscription you don't need, or whatever the case may be. Those are little things but they add up. And pay off the credit card with the highest interest first. People often attack the card with the highest balance but that's not necessarily the one with the highest rate.
Should people consider creating a spending budget and how can they stick to that spending plan when it's formulated?
Nancy Trejos: Of course! Everyone needs a budget. You have to know how you are spending your money. You have to know what your fixed and variable costs are. You have to know what your assets are. And from there, you can come up with a spending plan. It's not easy. You're going to screw up every once in a while. But you'll get better at it.
One of the greatest fears people have when creating a budget is they will never have fun again, and are faced with a lifetime of macaroni and cheese washed down with tap water. Does that have to be the case?
Nancy Trejos: Of course not! You can still have fun. You just have to set your priorities. Give yourself an entertainment budget. And make tradeoffs when you have to. Sometimes that dinner with friends means you'll have to wait for that pair of shoes you really wanted. It's all about prioritizing. Also, there are ways to have fun without dropping a lot of money. I still go out to eat, but more often than not, my friends and I will cook together, and it's so much fun.
People require good clothes to go to work in the modern world. Is it possible to dress well on a tight budget?
Nancy Trejos: Yes, you can find great deals at thrift stores and consignment shops. And conversely, when you have clothes you are done with, you can try selling them, sometimes even at a profit. And there are so many web sites that will help you find deals, like Shopittome.com. I get regular email alerts from them letting me know when items go on sale at my favorite stores.
Buying a car is a major purchase for people. What are some of the biggest mistakes that people make when they go shopping for a car?
Nancy Trejos: They don't do their research. And they give in to the car salesman too easily. That's why it's so important to take someone along with you. You shouldn't be afraid to walk away if a salesman is not willing to budge, especially when it's towards the end of the month and they're under pressure to show results. You are likely to get a call back if you walk away. And if you don't, there are plenty of cars for sale out there.
Is there a difference between good debt and bad debt, and how can a person tell the difference?
Nancy Trejos: I believe so. I don't consider my student loan a bad debt. I got a good education, and a job, out of it. Mortgages are usually considered to be good debt, though that has not been the case for many in recent years. If you are paying an exorbitant amount in interest or fees for your debt, it's not a good debt.
How can a retirement plan be created when there is only so much money to go around?
Nancy Trejos: Many employers will match your 401k contribution, so why not accept that? It's free money. I know it's hard to think about the future, but you must. You don't want to end up destitute in your retirement, or having to work many more years than you want to.
What is next for Nancy Trejos?
Nancy Trejos: I'm a work in progress. I'm doing much better financially, but there are times when I am tempted to buy something I shouldn't buy. I just have to keep reminding myself that being in debt is no fun. It kept me up many nights. I don't want to go back there.
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My book review of Hot (broke) Messes: How to Have Your Latte and Drink It Too by Nancy Trejos.
Jonathan Bernstein: Keeping the Wolves at Bay: Media Training - Author interview
President of Bernstein Crisis Management, Inc., and media relations expert Jonathan Bernstein, was kind enough to answer a few questions about his very practical and eye opening book Keeping the Wolves at Bay: Media Training.
Jonathan Bernstein describes how media training will help develop key messages, to improve the chance for balanced coverage, enhancing transferable media relations skills, and assisting in identifying effective media spokespeople.
Thanks to Jonathan Bernstein for his time and for his interesting and informative responses.
What was the background to writing this book Keeping the Wolves at Bay: Media Training?
Jonathan Bernstein: Most media trainers I know – self included, in the past – seem to use a collection of materials from multiple sources as handouts for their training sessions. I thought it might be very useful to have that type of information all in one place, in manual format, and discovered to my pleasant surprise that no one else had done that before.
In general, why do business executives need media training?
Jonathan Bernstein: Because nothing you learn in business school or any other professional training prepares you to deal with the media except in the most plain vanilla circumstances, like a trade press interview.
During a crisis, why is being well trained in media relations so critical for executives?
Jonathan Bernstein: It takes years to build a reputation and only seconds to lose one – the seconds during which an executive inserts his foot in his mouth during a media interview.
There are many types of media and many different definitions. How do you define media, and are the rules the same for alternative internet based media, including blogs and podcasts?
Jonathan Bernstein: That’s a very perceptive question. I define media as all channels employed to get your messages to your stakeholders, internal or external. Thanks to the Internet, the number of potential channels has grown exponentially.
The basic precepts of effective crisis communications are the same for all media, but the logistical and informational needs and motivations of alternative media can vary dramatically. And, there are no editorial controls or ethical standards established (yet) for alternative media, not that traditional media scores very high on the ethical scale anymore.
Jonathan Bernstein (photo left)
What are some of the major concerns and frustrations that executives have with journalists and the media?
Jonathan Bernstein: Some are accurate, some are delusional. The major concerns expressed to me by executives are editorial bias and inaccurate reporting. The former is definitely true, but if you understand that bias you can still make the most of the interview. Inaccurate reporting is sometimes the journalist’s fault, but it’s also sometimes the fault of an untrained interview subject, who can’t communicate clearly.
How can business leaders prepare more effectively for a media interview?
Jonathan Bernstein: Get trained, then practice what you’ve learned. Without practice (which could include actual interviews), interview skills erode rapidly. Oh, and buying my book wouldn’t hurt
Your book describes what you call the Three C's of Crisis Communication. What are they and why are they so important?
Jonathan Bernstein: I say that effective crisis communicators need to come across as Confident, Competent and Compassionate.
Think "Rudy Giuliani" on and after 9-11. It was his attitude, his non-verbal cues, which gave his audiences comfort. If he had delivered the same messages in a stereotypical governmental manner, the amount of fear and anxiety felt by listeners would have been dramatically higher. Instead, what they clearly felt, for the most part, was "However horrible this situation is, Mayor Giuliani is going to get us through it, he's doing the right thing, in the right way." He actually delivered little substance, initially, because so little was known. But he won over his audience (not to mention laying the groundwork for his future ventures).
If stakeholders perceive you as Confident, Competent and Compassionate, they are far more likely to believe your messages. In fact, if you're really good at projecting the "Three C's," you can get away with some messaging errors and still win over your audience.
Are there some effective tactics that business leaders should understand and utilize when speaking with members of the media?
Jonathan Bernstein: There are many tactics, but chief of them is being able to ingrain in oneself the concept that your job in a media interview has little to do with answering the reporter’s questions and everything to do with communicating your key messages. It’s completely counterintuitive to the way we usually talk to others.
Should a business leader be honest and avoid lying or sidestepping questions, and what are the consequences of being caught in a lie or misrepresentation?
Jonathan Bernstein: There are four ways to be dishonest – by commission, omission, exaggeration or understatement. If you try to obfuscate the truth in any way, that’s a lie in the mind of your stakeholders, and lying damages reputation far more than the humble truth.
Are there a few tips that are useful for all interview situations that are especially important in times of crisis?
Jonathan Bernstein:
1. Know your key messages and how to communicate them succinctly.
2. Understand and epitomize the “Three C’s” as mentioned above.
3. Assume that anything you say or do while in the presence of a reporter is “on the record,” even if a camera or digital recorder is allegedly off.
Can every business person be trained to work better with media representatives, even if the meeting is less than friendly?
Jonathan Bernstein: Almost all business people’s media skills can be improved from whatever level they start at. However, some are better at certain types of interviews (e.g., print, broadcast, radio) than others. And some are truly untrainable.
Does continual media relations practice make for better interviews and communications?
Jonathan Bernstein: Yes, and the opposite is true; lack of practice makes for poorer and poor interview results.
What is next for Jonathan Bernstein?
Jonathan Bernstein: Well, I never stop being busy at my “day job” of providing crisis management planning, training and response services to a wide array of clients. In the publishing arena, my next book will be specifically about Crisis Prevention. Look for that sometime in 2011.
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My book review of Keeping The Wolves At Bay: Media Training by Jonathan Bernstein.
About Keeping the Wolves at Bay: Media Training
Anyone who has achieved some degree of success in business, government work, helping run a non-profit organization, or any other field may be interviewed by the news media. This is a rich opportunity to gain positive publicity, but you can also find yourself in a position where you look bad. Jonathan L. Bernstein, president of Bernstein Crisis Management, Inc., has varied professional experiences, including public relations, crisis management, journalism, and covert military intelligence operations. Bernstein is a regular guest commentator and expert source for national media outlets and PR Week described him as one of 22 individuals nationwide "who should be on the speed dial in a crisis." For more details visit
Jonathan Bernstein (photo left)
About Jonathan Bernstein
Jonathan Bernstein is author of Keeping the Wolves at Bay: Media Training. He is a former journalist and a veteran of five years in U.S. Army Military Intelligence covert operations. He is also publisher and editor of Crisis Manager, a first-of-its-kind email newsletter written for “those who are crisis managers whether they want to be or not,” currently read in 75 countries. Bernstein is a regular guest commentator and expert source for national media outlets and PR Week described him as one of 22 individuals nationwide “who should be on the speed dial in a crisis.”
We invite you to join us for the Keeping the Wolves at Bay: Media Training virtual tour. The schedule and more details can be found at bookpromotionservices.com. For more information and to get your copy, visit thecrisismanager.com or Amazon.com
Jac Fitz-Enz: The New HR Analytics - Author interview
The acknowledged father of human capital strategic analysis, and Founder and CEO of Human Capital Source, Jac Fitz-enz, was kind enough to take the time to answer a few questions about his groundbreaking and visionary book The New HR Analytics: Predicting the Economic Value of Your Company's Human Capital Investments.
Jac Fitz-enz demonstrates, through a series of essays, written by leading human resource experts including himself, that Human Resources is not a cost to a company, but a measurable, and predictable contributor to overall corporate productivity and profitability.
Thanks to Jac Fitz-enz for his time but for his comprehensive answers.
What was the background to writing this book The New HR Analytics: Predicting the Economic Value of Your Company's Human Capital Investments?
Jac Fitz-Enz: It became clear in about 2007 that I had pushed metrics, benchmarking and best practices about as far as they could go. There was nothing new coming out. Then it struck me that the natural evolution would be toward predictability and eventually data integration. That is when I organized the Predictive Initiative composed of a dozen companies, management associations and a government agency. Over the next 18 months we developed Predictive Management, HCM:21®(human capital management for the 21st century). This is the model described in my book.
For many years, Human Resources has been viewed by corporate management as a cost center. Why has this point of view been so entrenched in companies?
Jac Fitz-Enz: I believe that ancient perception is finally dying out in many companies. There were a couple sources for this misperception. One is that HR was missing a quantitative language to describe the business values it was providing. That is what started me on the metrics and analytics trail back in the late 1970s. The second source is the HR people who have no aptitude nor interest in being a business professional. They like to run their process and work with people; period! For them the future is an endless conveyor belt on incoming problems with little satisfaction at the end of the day.
Has there been a move toward a much more quantitative analysis of the role of Human Resources in an organization?
Jac Fitz-Enz: I parse the HR population into four sections: One are the innovators. These people are on the leading edge of analytics and clearly are business partners. They make up about 10-15 percent. Second are the early adopters. They are another 20-30 percent who watch the innovators, follow and borrow what works from them. They are less skilled and motivated but, nevertheless are moving in the right direction. The third group is what I call the workers or drones. They show up every day and do their job; what they are told to do by the first and second group. There is no innovation here; just good work. Last are the zombies. They are the 10 percent who are lucky to get to work now and then. They are a drag on the organization and generally on society. Analytics is strictly within the first two groups.
How have the metrics used in HR analytics changed and been enhanced over recent years?
Jac Fitz-Enz: The change has been a progression from basic transaction recording; i.e., cost to hire, pay, train, turnover rate, etc., timeliness of various processing such as time to fill jobs, quantity or volume such as numbers hired, trained, processed. Later issues of quality and employee/manager satisfaction emerged. Within the past 5 years there has been a shift from descriptive analytics toward prescriptive decision making by applying simple processes such as correlations and regressions. Just now, with the advent of books on analytics, there is more movement toward predictability. The next exciting issue is data integration.
Jac Fitz-enz (photo left)
Your book goes far beyond the descriptive analytics field and enters into the realm of predictive management. What does this mean for HR?
Jac Fitz-Enz: Management is all about observing past outcomes and trends and making decisions about future investments. Executives can’t manage yesterday, or even today. All they can do is make decisions about investments for tomorrow. I call it Managing Tomorrow Today. Predictive analytics along with data mining finds patterns in historical and transactional data. Adding in forecasts of trends in economics, labor supply and competitor and customer actions and so forth, analytics then can identify predict future risks & opportunities with a high degree of probability.
When applied to human capital management HR can show the C-level the most cost effective paths to acquiring, developing and retaining talent. Without it all HR has to go on is past personal experience. The problem is that the past cannot be extrapolated to the future because the differences are too great. For instance, how can you take data from 2007 and use it as a model for managing 2011?
The other part that has become increasingly clear and powerful is the interactions between human capital (employees), structural capital (things owned by the company) and relational capital (outside interests). As elements of human capital management change so do structural and relational elements. For instance, if the four generation workforce has to be managed differently than the more homogeneous workforce of the past then we need to look at structural issues such as use of technology, design of workspaces, training tools, benefit programs and so on. Relationally we may have to rethink talent sources and methods, government regulations, and SEC imposed new human capital risk rules. I don’t see any way at all that HR can function effectively tomorrow without predictive analytics.
Is it indeed possible to predict upcoming events and develop the tools to influence those events in a positive way?
Jac Fitz-Enz: Certainly. Management has been doing it in production, marketing and finance for decades. Analytically speaking the same principles can be applied to employees. Marketing makes predictions about customer desires doesn’t it? And aren’t customers human beings just like employees? We’ve shown examples in the book of how to use analytics to make hiring more cost effective in terms of performance, potential and tenure. We’ve shown a succession planning methodology that directing impacts revenue per employee.
There is certainly a way to predict the effects of compensation and benefits within a total rewards system. I’m already getting calls from line managers who want to apply predictive analytics to their human capital managers. Why aren’t they calling their HR department instead of me?
Your book contains a new model of HR metrics. Briefly, what is that model and why is it important?
Jac Fitz-Enz: First, people need to understand that predictive analytics is primarily about a logical questioning system. We need a framework within which to study a problem before we throw statistics at it. Scientists learned eons ago that the solution to every problem is found within the questions asked. Once we understand our problem and desired solution we can gather data and analyze it. So, my model starts with a scan of everything outside that might affect the way we manage our human, structural and relational capital.
Secondly, it looks internally at everything that may be enhancing or inhibiting our success. Once we have all that data, both past and foreseeable futures, we can plan. Here we trade in old workforce planning methods that are industrial era, gap analysis exercises for capability planning. The goal is not to fill jobs but rather to acquire and retain human capability. It is an entirely different mindset.
The third step is process analysis. By applying analytics to our talent management functions of staffing, paying, training, etc. we can find turn expensive processes into corporate assets: processes that generate more value than they cost. Finally, we offer an integrated performance measurement/reporting package. It links strategic, operational and leading indicators into one report. For the most advanced people we build in data integration and risk management analysis.
Is it possible to change the role of Human Resources to becoming a value generator for the company?
Jac Fitz-Enz: Of course it is possible and has already happened in a number of organizations. The solution is found in the old axiom of Pogo Possum who said, “We has found the enemy and they is us.” HR is held back only by HR. It is possible even in companies where HR as a value generator has not been accepted. I did this 35 years ago when I was an HR director. I found business problems that I could fix through better sourcing or training and I fixed them. When management saw that I was adding business value (productivity and quality) their attitudes changed. You can’t wait for the knight in shining armor to rescue you.
Will we see an HR Analytics component as a standard feature contributing to the company bottom line?
Jac Fitz-Enz: I am on the board of a couple of companies. In my quarterly board package is a set of human capital metrics that we directors look at as part of our mandate to guide the company. Just like finance, production and technology we look at human issues as they affect the company’s profitability.
Are there any companies who are using this new HR Analytics model successfully right now?
Jac Fitz-Enz: The book contains about 20 cases of how companies around the world use human capital analytics to solve business problems. They range from isolated single variable issues such as turnover to complex corporate makeover examples.
What is the future for the HR Analytics model?
Jac Fitz-Enz: I believe that the innovators and early adopters will build on the fundamentals of analytics just as they have done with metrics. In time, the model will expand, improve and morph into something better based on experience and changes in the marketplace.
What is next for Jac Fitz-Enz?
Jac Fitz-Enz: Sometimes I feel like Moses. I’ve been leading people toward the Promised Land for over 30 years but will probably not live to see many of them arrive. The vanguard is about to cross over now, but the majority may still be decades away. For me, I am very interested in data integration and risk management. I’m working with two software companies that have very exciting prototypes which we are testing in the market now. By 2011 I expect to see both in the market.
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My book review of The New HR Analytics: Predicting the Economic Value of Your Company's Human Capital Investments by Jac Fitz-enz.
